EXPERT INTERVIEW — After one of the most emotional, anger-filled days ever captured on public record in the Oval Office, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky left the White House in a worse position than when he arrived as tempers flared during comments made before reporters between the Ukrainian President, President Donald Trump and Vice President JD Vance.
Zelensky made the trip to sign a framework deal on joint development of Ukrainian critical minerals in exchange for U.S. support during Russia’s unprovoked and deadly war in Ukraine. He was expected to use both the agreement and his visit to appeal for a seat for Ukraine at peace negotiations, as well as U.S. backing for Ukrainian security guarantees once the guns go silent. But the world witnessed a remarkably contentious and heated exchange instead in which the U.S. president and vice president berated Zelensky for not showing what they saw as not enough gratitude for U.S. support though Zelensky has repeatedly and very publicly thanked the U.S. numerous times for its assistance — in December 2022, during his address to Congress, 10 months after Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine; in April 2024, after the passage of billions of dollars worth of new aid for Kyiv; and at his December 2024 meeting with President Trump in Paris, to say nothing of the hundreds of quotes in the media expressing appreciation over the past three years.
With the world watching as emotions escalated, President Trump came to Russian President Vladimir Putin’s defense as Zelensky tried to layout a pattern of murder and efforts to take Ukrainian sovereign territory by force since 2014.
“That made for tough viewing and my sympathies are of course with President Zelensky,” former senior member of the British Foreign Office Nick Fishwick told The Cipher Brief. “He has heroically led his country through three years of hell, and he deserves better treatment than he received in the White House: whatever the U.S. has lined up to end the fighting in Ukraine, Zelenskyy should be honored and as he is the visitor it should have been the American side that was doing the listening.”
President Trump did however, offer a very public clue as to why he sees the Russian President in a very different light than U.S. intelligence officials who have warned for years of Putin’s efforts to undermine and gain advantage over the U.S via gray zone attacks, cyberattacks and criminal activity. The U.S. president, cutting off Zelensky mid-sentence said, “Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia.”
“I don’t think it makes a difference to what we already knew,” said Fishwick of the Oval Office spectacle. “We knew President Trump has a different geopolitical vision from Biden and others and we know that he does not see Russia as an enemy. We British are in Europe (geographically and economically, even if we have left the EU) and Russia under its present regime is a direct threat to us and our European friends and colleagues. So, we are going to have to start taking over the heavy lifting from the US. That was probably going to happen sooner or later, Trump or no Trump.”
The Cipher Brief spoke with former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General Phil Breedlove, who has advocated for U.S. support to Ukraine in its fight against Russia since Moscow’s deadly invasion of Crimea in 2014.
We spoke with him to get a sense of just what viable options President Zelensky may have now and asked him for his initial reaction to what the world witnessed from the White House today. Our conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Breedlove: This was a horrible disappointment and almost a shock to the system.
I don't do politics, so let me just say that there was only one winner today, and that is Vladimir Putin. He must be absolutely happy with what he saw today and to see how his plan to drag the U.S. out of NATO and separate NATO and Ukraine from the United States, is working. Today was a big day for Mr. Putin.
The Cipher Brief: President Trump interrupted President Zelensky several times when he was trying to communicate what President Putin has done to his country. But President Trump sees it differently, saying that Putin has been through “a hell of a lot” with him. Given all of the activities that Russia carries out against the U.S., how dangerous could it be for the president to have this mindset?
Breedlove: Well, if I could add one layer of complexity to what you just brought up, which is all relevant: If you look at the last two weeks leading into this Oval Office discussion, and you look at what our president has been trying to do, some of it is very noble. I mean, he wants to stop the killing. There are a lot of things he wants to do, and he intimates that he's working this big deal. But if you pay attention to what the two sides are saying in public, on the Russian side, they are saying that none of the current demands [for a ceasefire in Ukraine are] acceptable. They say they won't accept this, referring to all the things that the West or the United States is bringing up, they have been adamant, not only Putin, but Lavrov and other close-in mouthpieces, have been adamant that they're not going to accept any of these conditions. In fact, they very recently intimated that not only would they not accept it, but they expect the U.S. in this deal to give them land that they never conquered. So, it's really hard to understand that when we watch what Mr. Putin and his people are doing in public, on the record, out there in the open, what they're saying, and then all we hear from our side of the negotiation is the things that Ukraine is going to have to give up. Remember Russia is the aggressor. Don't be fooled by any of this hullabaloo out there in the news that they aren’t. Russia is and was and has been the aggressor. Ukraine is the aggrieved nation and how would we have a conversation whereby the aggressor gets everything, and the aggrieved nation has to sacrifice? Now, I don't know how those conversations went behind the closed doors of the Oval Office before they came out to have this press conference. I don't know how that all went, but it had to be a really tough conversation.
The Cipher Brief:I think we would all like to have a little more insight into the context around how all of this unfolded. But it's very interesting to me that the one thing that has been missing from the descriptions that President Trump has made about President Putin is that Russia poses a threat at all to the United States. You would think that if this is just simply a deal, that there would be a call to end those actions against the U.S. as well as part of it. How do you feel about that given what you saw when you were at NATO and what you continue to see since you've been to Ukraine multiple times since the full-scale invasion?
Watch our interview with General Phil Breedlove (Ret.) on The Cipher Brief’s You Tube Channel
Breedlove: As you know, we have formally identified Russia as a threat. We are a part of NATO, NATO's last document, the DDA [the Concept for Deterrence and Defence of the Euro-Atlantic Area] labels Russia as a threat. So, we in the United States have signed up to that. It would have never gone into the document had we not. We know that Mr. Putin is a threat. What we are trying to do, as you know, is focus on the horizon and keep our eyes on China. This also is a noble effort. But Clauswitz was quick to tell us that the enemy gets a vote. And right now, Mr. Putin is voting for war. There is war in Europe, and the war is burning at our toes while we are gazing into the distance. And I think that we need to be a little more realistic in where we put our efforts. Now, the administration would tell you ‘we're trying to stop the killing’. I think the real question to ask is at what cost? Do we capitulate to Mr. Putin and give them everything that Russia says they're demanding? And do we ask the aggrieved nation to give up everything? That's the question we need to be asking ourselves.
The Cipher Brief:So, what about this friendship without limits between China and Russia? If the Russian president feels like he has the ability to influence or has a bond with the American president, how is China looking at this as an opportunity?
Breedlove: I belong to that group that believe that China sees Russia as a useful little brother. And just in the last couple of days, several pundits, and at least one of good reputation, have talked about the need to be careful about China fostering this little brother association to their gain. An example of this is when Russia needed a friend back in the 2014-2015 timeline. Russia cut a huge oil deal with China to make the world say, ‘Look, they're cooperating’. And China is enjoying some very cheap petroleum products based on Russia's drastic need to have a friend in front of the world back then. So, I think we need to be careful. I don't see this as two militaries ganging up on the world. I see this as China being more empowered to do things it wants to do and Russia needing China so badly, that it will give China the chance to advantage themselves.
The Cipher Brief: I wonder if some Americans may be forgetting the fact that Russia and China have both burrowed their way into U.S. critical infrastructure. There has been IP theft, criminal activities that have been attributed to Russia and China across multiple administrations. Should ending that should be part of any deal that struck in Ukraine? Something that goes beyond what Russia has done only in that country to what they're actually doing by targeting Americans today?
Breedlove: Well, the obvious answer is yes. Again, we don't know what's happened in the back rooms of these conversations to this point. Mr. Trump says he's had a conversation with Putin. Mr. Putin says he never had that conversation. There is a lot of ‘was-was’ here that's going to have to get worked out. But I think that when we sit down to deal with Russia, it needs to be in a holistic manner looking at all the bad behavior that they've had over time. Their invasion of Georgia in 2008, the invasion of the Crimea or of Crimea and the Donbas in 2013, 2014, 2015, and now the invasion of the rest of Ukraine in these last three years. We need to be holistic in looking back at the bad behavior of an aggressor nation and the leader that cultivates that behavior and then we will be able to take a real view on what's going on.
The Cipher Brief:OK, let's look forward here in our final question. Let’s say you are President Zelensky. You're leaving the White House without the deal you thought you were going to be getting when you arrived. You're actually more wounded now than you were when you arrived. What is next for you? What are the practical pathways to push forward where it won't make this worse?
Breedlove: You asked the $64,000 question, which is now more like the $64 million question. President Zelensky is a proud man who has probably slept less than any human being on the planet for the last 11 years. And his country is fighting for its life by itself as far as manpower against a world superpower that has decided that it will amass its army, march across internationally recognized borders, and invade the nations that surround it. So, Mr. Zelensky's in a tough place, but part of the way ahead will have to be possibly eating a little crow along the way. I was disappointed in the whole demand to show more gratitude during this contentious meeting. How many times has Zelensky said thank you? I don't know where that whole conversation started, but the fact of the matter is Mr. Zelensky needs Europe. And as you know, in this war, Europe has contributed more to Ukraine than America. That is a fact. He needs Europe, but he also needs America. And some of Europe is loath to act without America. So, he’s going to have to find his way to sit back down with the president of the United States, hopefully next time in a more private setting and work things out to a degree that they can then show some unity in front of the world. And while it's important for the world to see unity, the most important thing is for Mr. Putin to understand that the important elements of the West are not going to allow him to continue running over the top of his neighbor nations. He needs to hear that loud and clear and publicly - that we're not going to tolerate it.
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